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	<title>Comments on: Why the Poor Will Always Be With Us: Part 2</title>
	<link>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/</link>
	<description>Learning and sharing investment knowledge.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Dr. Frank Morgan.</title>
		<link>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-460956</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-460956</guid>
					<description>I am a private investor based in the United Kingdom. I focus on seed capital, early-stage, start-up, ventures, LLC and all round completion and expansion of investment projects that need funding. I am interested to invest in your company on a long-term business relationship. If this is alright with you kindly get back to me with more details about your company.  Dr. Frank Morgan.(Individual/Angel investor</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a private investor based in the United Kingdom. I focus on seed capital, early-stage, start-up, ventures, LLC and all round completion and expansion of investment projects that need funding. I am interested to invest in your company on a long-term business relationship. If this is alright with you kindly get back to me with more details about your company.  Dr. Frank Morgan.(Individual/Angel investor
</p>
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		<link>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-423106</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 13:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-423106</guid>
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		<title>by: Ambien.</title>
		<link>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-276343</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-276343</guid>
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		<title>by: Not Erin Morgan</title>
		<link>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-21450</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-21450</guid>
					<description>You all might enjoy Erin's other contributions, at iamfacingforeclosure.com.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You all might enjoy Erin&#8217;s other contributions, at iamfacingforeclosure.com.
</p>
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		<title>by: Christian Gross</title>
		<link>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-7354</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-7354</guid>
					<description>Kevin: I agree with you, but let's look at the entire quote as I think you are taking it out of context.

"Wherever there is a great property, there is great inequality. For one very rich man, there must be at least five hundred poor, and the affluence of the few supposes the indigence of the many. The affluence of the rich excites the indignation of the poor, who are often both driven by want, and prompted by envy to invade his possessions. It is only under the shelter of the civil magistrate, that the owner of that valuable property, which is acquired by the labour of many years, or perhaps of
many successive generations, can sleep a single night in security. He is at all times surrounded by unknown enemies, whom, though he never provoked, he can never appease, and from whose injustice he can be protected only by the powerful arm of the civil magistrate, continually held up to chastise it. The acquisition of valuable and extensive property, therefore, necessarily requires the establishment of civil government. Where there is no property, or at least none that exceeds the value of two or three days labour, civil government is not
so necessary."

My reading of this quote in the context of his document is the following. When people were hunters and gatherers there was no construct called property. We just happened to wander around, kill animals and live as we please. Once we created the notion of property things changed completely and the quote addresses that change.

He makes the case that "subordination" was different when there was no property. When we were hunters and gatherers the leader was the one who could beat the head of two lesser people. That was justice plain and simple. 

Another form of subordination before property was age. Elders made the decisions. If you were the youngest of siblings then you pulled the wrong straw and had to listen to the eldest. 

Yet another form of subordination was fortune. The one that had acquired the most fortune was the one making the rules.

Adam Smith makes the point that with property somebody who is weak, young, and poor can own something. Yet that individual is powerless to protect themselves. Thus there exists the need to create a civil government, as Adam Smith puts it, whenever anybody gets a piece of property others will want to take it away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin: I agree with you, but let&#8217;s look at the entire quote as I think you are taking it out of context.</p>
<p>&#8220;Wherever there is a great property, there is great inequality. For one very rich man, there must be at least five hundred poor, and the affluence of the few supposes the indigence of the many. The affluence of the rich excites the indignation of the poor, who are often both driven by want, and prompted by envy to invade his possessions. It is only under the shelter of the civil magistrate, that the owner of that valuable property, which is acquired by the labour of many years, or perhaps of<br />
many successive generations, can sleep a single night in security. He is at all times surrounded by unknown enemies, whom, though he never provoked, he can never appease, and from whose injustice he can be protected only by the powerful arm of the civil magistrate, continually held up to chastise it. The acquisition of valuable and extensive property, therefore, necessarily requires the establishment of civil government. Where there is no property, or at least none that exceeds the value of two or three days labour, civil government is not<br />
so necessary.&#8221;</p>
<p>My reading of this quote in the context of his document is the following. When people were hunters and gatherers there was no construct called property. We just happened to wander around, kill animals and live as we please. Once we created the notion of property things changed completely and the quote addresses that change.</p>
<p>He makes the case that &#8220;subordination&#8221; was different when there was no property. When we were hunters and gatherers the leader was the one who could beat the head of two lesser people. That was justice plain and simple. </p>
<p>Another form of subordination before property was age. Elders made the decisions. If you were the youngest of siblings then you pulled the wrong straw and had to listen to the eldest. </p>
<p>Yet another form of subordination was fortune. The one that had acquired the most fortune was the one making the rules.</p>
<p>Adam Smith makes the point that with property somebody who is weak, young, and poor can own something. Yet that individual is powerless to protect themselves. Thus there exists the need to create a civil government, as Adam Smith puts it, whenever anybody gets a piece of property others will want to take it away.
</p>
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		<title>by: Kevin H.</title>
		<link>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-7347</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-7347</guid>
					<description>An excerpt from "Wealth of nations" by the father of capitalistic economics, Adam Smith.

"Wherever there is great property, there is great inequality. For one very rich man, there must be at least five hundred of the poor, and the affluence of the few supposes the indigence of the many. [. . .] It is only under the shelter of the civil magistrate [read, the police] that the owner of that valuable property, which is acquired by the labor of many years, or perhaps of many successive generations, can sleep a single night in security."

...nuff said</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excerpt from &#8220;Wealth of nations&#8221; by the father of capitalistic economics, Adam Smith.</p>
<p>&#8220;Wherever there is great property, there is great inequality. For one very rich man, there must be at least five hundred of the poor, and the affluence of the few supposes the indigence of the many. [. . .] It is only under the shelter of the civil magistrate [read, the police] that the owner of that valuable property, which is acquired by the labor of many years, or perhaps of many successive generations, can sleep a single night in security.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;nuff said
</p>
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		<title>by: prlinkbiz</title>
		<link>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-7337</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-7337</guid>
					<description>It's good to see so much conversation.  Good for gauging where people's thoughts about money are at around here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s good to see so much conversation.  Good for gauging where people&#8217;s thoughts about money are at around here.
</p>
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		<title>by: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-7305</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-7305</guid>
					<description>"Your views are so horribly American and so horribly wrong."

What does this mean?  How is this view "American"?  Isn't America the land of opportunity?  Isn't it here where immigrants come in search of the American dream?  If that's what you mean then I agree, her views are very American.  Now how is that so horribly wrong?  Are you saying that a homeless or poor person has no chance here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Your views are so horribly American and so horribly wrong.&#8221;</p>
<p>What does this mean?  How is this view &#8220;American&#8221;?  Isn&#8217;t America the land of opportunity?  Isn&#8217;t it here where immigrants come in search of the American dream?  If that&#8217;s what you mean then I agree, her views are very American.  Now how is that so horribly wrong?  Are you saying that a homeless or poor person has no chance here?
</p>
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		<title>by: James Atkins</title>
		<link>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-7301</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-7301</guid>
					<description>Although I agree with some of your points a lot is missing. There are a lot of social pressures that if you are weak willed you will succum to. And I think you can not pretend to be better than these people and shake your finger at them for not taking control of their finances. 

People want the new car, people want the expensive clothes and companies take advantage of consumers' weak will's. How many people do you know in the US that have a pickup truck that are afraid to scratch the bed of the truck? Go to Europe, everyone that onws a truck or utility van uses it for their trade. Walk along a street in Europe and the streets are lines with SmartCars and compact cars. Practical and fuel efficient. There is no need for oversized gas guzzlers and people don't buy into the hype. That is a major problem here, bigger automatically means better. Overconsumption is the name of the game, and everyone is guilty of it at some point. 

Another problem is that people are afraid of finance and investing when really anyone can do it if they spend the time to learn a little about it. People are overperscribed. They have too much on their plate. They do not make time for investing, they either neglect it to leave it up to someone else who most likely is not looking out for them. If you could fix your car you would, same way if you could handle your investments you would. 

Another huge problem, what is the savings rate in this country? .5%, or some number close to that. This is a widespread cultural problem. This comes from the top down. We are a consumer driven society, if we do not spend we crumble. Recently when oil prices started to drop, and people saved a little at the pump what happened? People went out and started shopping again, retailers started doing better (excluding Wal-Mart, which shows are not trying to save). Public Officials need to make sure that they encourage everyone to save, and invest in places that will make them money. Your home isn't an asset its a liability. People spend money on things that make them spend more money.

These problems run deep and it will take a lot to correct them. No one is perfect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I agree with some of your points a lot is missing. There are a lot of social pressures that if you are weak willed you will succum to. And I think you can not pretend to be better than these people and shake your finger at them for not taking control of their finances. </p>
<p>People want the new car, people want the expensive clothes and companies take advantage of consumers&#8217; weak will&#8217;s. How many people do you know in the US that have a pickup truck that are afraid to scratch the bed of the truck? Go to Europe, everyone that onws a truck or utility van uses it for their trade. Walk along a street in Europe and the streets are lines with SmartCars and compact cars. Practical and fuel efficient. There is no need for oversized gas guzzlers and people don&#8217;t buy into the hype. That is a major problem here, bigger automatically means better. Overconsumption is the name of the game, and everyone is guilty of it at some point. </p>
<p>Another problem is that people are afraid of finance and investing when really anyone can do it if they spend the time to learn a little about it. People are overperscribed. They have too much on their plate. They do not make time for investing, they either neglect it to leave it up to someone else who most likely is not looking out for them. If you could fix your car you would, same way if you could handle your investments you would. </p>
<p>Another huge problem, what is the savings rate in this country? .5%, or some number close to that. This is a widespread cultural problem. This comes from the top down. We are a consumer driven society, if we do not spend we crumble. Recently when oil prices started to drop, and people saved a little at the pump what happened? People went out and started shopping again, retailers started doing better (excluding Wal-Mart, which shows are not trying to save). Public Officials need to make sure that they encourage everyone to save, and invest in places that will make them money. Your home isn&#8217;t an asset its a liability. People spend money on things that make them spend more money.</p>
<p>These problems run deep and it will take a lot to correct them. No one is perfect.
</p>
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		<title>by: Christian Gross</title>
		<link>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-7299</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2006/10/09/why-the-poor-will-always-be-with-us-part-2/#comment-7299</guid>
					<description>One more comment that I forgot to add:

5) Not anyone can make it. Hard work is not enough. There are many many examples of this and the simplest is Tesla, and Edison.  Tesla had better technology, better ideas, worked harder, and yet Edison beat him. http://home.earthlink.net/~drestinblack/didyouknow.htm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla, http://flyingmoose.org/truthfic/tesla.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more comment that I forgot to add:</p>
<p>5) Not anyone can make it. Hard work is not enough. There are many many examples of this and the simplest is Tesla, and Edison.  Tesla had better technology, better ideas, worked harder, and yet Edison beat him. <a href='http://home.earthlink.net/~drestinblack/didyouknow.htm,' rel='nofollow'>http://home.earthlink.net/~drestinblack/didyouknow.htm,</a> <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla,' rel='nofollow'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla,</a> <a href='http://flyingmoose.org/truthfic/tesla.htm' rel='nofollow'>http://flyingmoose.org/truthfic/tesla.htm</a>
</p>
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